Seems to be a debate on types of Catalysts that should be used in HHO production.
Everything I find about using catalysts states to start with a small amount, increasing gradually until your goal amperage is reached, bear in mind that a cold start may be at 10 amps and gradually increase as high as 15 to 30 amps depending on which catalyst is used. Some catalysts such as baking soda are consumed during HHO production, while others such as NaOH are not consumed, and only water needs to be added.
If you have definitive research about a particular catalyst please let us know the details, so we can add the intel for all to use.
Here are a few that are commonly used and inherent pros/cons with each.
Baking Soda: Sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate is the chemical compound with the formula NaHCO3. Above 60 °C (140F), it gradually decomposes into sodium carbonate, water and carbon dioxide. The conversion is fast at 200 °C (392F)
Vinegar: is a liquid processed from the fermentation of ethanol in a process that yields its key ingredient, acetic acid. The acetic acid concentration typically ranges from 4 to 8 percent by volume for table vinegar [1] (typically 5%) and higher concentrations for pickling (up to 18%). Natural vinegars also contain small amounts of tartaric acid, citric acid, and other acids. Commercial vinegar available to consumers for household use does not exceed 5% and solutions above 10% need careful handling since they are corrosive and damaging to skin. Stronger solutions (i.e., greater than 5%) that are labeled for use as herbicides are available from some retailers.
KOH: potassium hydroxide, sometimes known as caustic potash, It is very alkaline and is a “strong base”. The dissolution in water is strongly exothermic, producing substantial amounts of energy in form of heat, leading to temperature rise, sometimes up to boiling point and over; concentrated aqueous solutions are called potassium lyes. As a very strong base/alkali, potassium hydroxide is strongly corrosive, both towards inorganic as well as organic materials, including living tissues; care must be therefore taken, when handling the substance and its solutions. Its corrosivity is sometimes used in cleaning and disinfection of resistant surfaces and materials.[5]
NaOH: Sodium hydroxide, also known as lye, caustic soda, is a caustic metallic base. Sodium hydroxide forms a strong alkaline solution when dissolved in a solvent such as water. It is used in many industries, mostly as a strong chemical base in the manufacture of pulp and paper, textiles, drinking water, soaps and detergents and as a drain cleaner. It is deliquescent and readily absorbs carbon dioxide from the air, so it should be stored in an airtight container. It is very soluble in water with liberation of heat.
Sulphuric Acid: is a strong mineral acid with the molecular formula H2SO4. It is soluble in water at all concentrations. Some common concentrations are
- 10%, dilute sulfuric acid for laboratory use,
- 33.5%, battery acid (used in lead-acid batteries),
- 62.18%, chamber or fertilizer acid,
- 77.67%, tower or Glover acid,
- 98%, concentrated acid.
The hydration reaction of sulfuric acid is highly exothermic. If water is added to the concentrated sulfuric acid, it can react, boil and spit dangerously. One should always add the acid to the water rather than the water to the acid. Sulfuric acid reacts with most metals via a single displacement reaction to produce hydrogen gas and the metal sulfate. Dilute H2SO4 attacks iron, aluminium, zinc, manganese, magnesium and nickel, but reactions with tin and copper require the acid to be hot and concentrated. Lead and tungsten, however, are resistant to sulfuric acid.
Salt: composed primarily of sodium chloride, with the formula NaCl. elemental chlorine is usually produced by the electrolysis of sodium chloride dissolved in water. Along with chlorine, this chloralkali process yields hydrogen gas and sodium hydroxide, according to the chemical equation
2NaCl + 2H2O → Cl2 + H2 + 2NaOH
Chlorine It has a disagreeable, suffocating odor that is detectable in concentrations as low as 3.5 ppm[1] and is poisonous. This should be avoided as a catalyst completely just for personal safety.
Filed under: Catalysts | Tagged: acid, baking soda, base, catalyst, hho, HHO production, KOH, NaOH, salt, vinegar |
HHO Fuel 
I have seen some odd catalysts mentioned but am unable to find out much about them, such as one mentioned using ’15 koolaid bags’ and another used 4 teaspoons of ‘hot tub ph reducer’.
Anyone tried these or know more about them and the results?
Wouldn’t it be great if there was a place where you had an expert like the wizard of oz who could just give us perpetuality, like 10 000 miles between services…some of the stuff were fed on the net makes me bonker$$$ beyond help. I cant believe some people work this stuff out and there aren’t amazon answers but hillbilly folk on you tube, that just isn’t enough. If you’ve got one of these things and it works and its not putting out enough because of a catalysts then dang I’d be wondering about the water you use when the sale comes first on this ship ment to be our…fuckin’ sanitarium and not one of significant scientific intelect can do this and people are killed for it, a coil to fix it…? neutral plates…? under the bonet…? What is the internet, where you assinate idiots. HHO would have to be as big as face book, something else i never used and in the beginnings of the net back in 95…or was it 2000 and…well, now, chernobyl was 86…but my birth certificate it was 78…? and i herd of a guy who ran his car on sea water but he’s not around no more and the only work in this country nows on a rig out there, 300 000 people lost their jobs after xmas i’m beginning to think that no one knows how HHO goes and anyone who does laughs. I have a auto text that reckons that you can run a car on hydrogen yet no one can do 100% HHO – I built the thing and i’m pissed i want shister filters on the net so idiots like me can get info and not have to worry about a prophetic song –
I cand stand it, i know you planned it.
I’m make it straight, this watergate.
US law, oh my god, listen up ya’ll its a scrap yard…
I tried Salt – Produces tons of gunk quickly. Then a buddy leaned his face over the water bath and said “dude it smells funny too”…lol. Won’t be doing that again.
Tried Pedialyte. It actually did pretty good, nothing phenomenal, but it was just a jar of original Pedialyte.
Baking Soda – Used it and like it. Safe for everyone, cheap, and easy to find. Probably my highest vote.
Lye – Using it now, don’t like it. Sure it does the job, but it’s so dangerous. Talked to a guy who got some in his engine..on a mercedes. Do you know what Lye does to aluminum? It’s also a pain in the but to work with gloves on. I don’t wear gloves so I’m constantly washing my hands. Just bad stuff, not worth the trouble. Why use this over Baking Soda? To extend the life of your water bath? It’s not hard to empty a cell housing once a week and keep a completely fresh solution in your container. If it is hard, rethink your cell housing and installed location.
Everything does the same thing when being used for HHO, carry current in the water bath. I’m not going to try anything else, found my preference. Looking forward to reading new posts here though.
Have tried Potassium Carbonate , mixed with a little Boric Acid and one Tablespoon of Ammonium Solution. Found it to work well with Destilled Water. Cell stays Clean, produces a good Amount of Gas and the Electrolyte is not Corrosive like KOH.
If you use baking soda you need to invest in a pulse width modulator for amp control. And heat build up in the cell will melt plastics. It also has an ability to make brown build up on the plates. It can be removed with vinegar or lye. The lye is dangerous but is temp stable within a couple of amps.
Baking soda is good if you control it with electronics and re add the same mix. Lye is a one shot deal just add distilled water to refill.
thermal runaway is controlled with a ccpwm.
which catalyst works fine for HHO peroduction?
which metal is recomended for the ionisation of water for better HHO production with catalyst?
KOH has to be the best catalyst and Titanium with multi metal oxide, that I provide, is proven the best next generation generator.
what is the website?
dinesh,
above you’ll find a list of catalysts/electrolytes that work and in common use with HHO production.
As far as which metal, the prefered is Stainless Steel (ss) a good grade (316L,304L), preferably & non magnetic. But for testing any steel will work, steel, copper,brass etc will ‘gunk’ up the catalyst. There is some talk of titanium and platinum working the best, but generally too expensive.
I found a kit that uses titanium with MMO to improve the production, stop the brown water and only add water once in a while. Kit only cost $400.
Contact me and I will give the web site.
found a kit that uses titanium with MMO to improve the production, stop the brown water and only add water once in a while. Kit only cost $400.
Contact me and I will give the web site.
>>>>>>>>>
Hi Mel, what is the website? How much better is it compared to 316L stainless?
Thanks, Mike
What is the website of the supplier ?
please send me any web site containing titanium info.
Could you send me the information to the website with the titanium kit? Thanks
yes sir please send e-mail on purchasing a titanium with mmo -what is mmo you lost me on that one , thants and you have a niece day richg322@yahoo.com
What about citric acid- Lemon Juice?
Never tried it, but it should work, but remember the idea for a catalyst/electrolyte is for it to not be used up, so that only water needs to be added. Otherwise a consistent mix needs to be available, or mixed before adding water.
An added thought about the electrolyte not being used up, as water is being converted the mix gets more concentrated, and the amps go up. If its used up the amps stay the same.
After running vinegar for a while I had a build up on the positive plate interior. Other 3 sides were clean of a 2 plate system. Cleaned the gunk off easily. Any similar experiences?
The only gunk build up I’ve had is with baking soda, shouldn’t say that, When I’ve used other than SS there has been a build up no matter what electrolyte/catalyst I tried.
Thanks so much for posting your experiences.. very helpful. If I’m reading correctly.. baking-soda still gets “thumbs-up” overall.
I think the site that suggested using San Peligrino mineral water then topping off with aquafine drinking water was the best over baking soda which had to be removed when the bloom is reached. Contact me and I wil give you the site.
Very danger if you still use katalys like KOH, NaOH, Baking Soda, Salt. Now I made Hydrogen Generator without chemical, just water and then made the huge Hydrogen gas. Please email, aditya_indra@msn.com or +62 21 914 99472 , Just 12VDC 6 – 8 A., very huges Hydrogen gas ( 2 Liter/minutes)
Please send me your website
could you please give us all futher details on that cell
To Aditya,
Just wanted to comment on your publication dated Oct. 31, 2008. It seemed you found luck with what you are doing yet I still find it hard to believe. Water electrolysis needs an electro-booster agent for hydrogen and oxygen to be separated and demands high energy for the stable water molecule to break into HHO
can anyone put me in the direction to find out how much of what catalyst to add to a mix? ie. how much baking soda with water?
start with a small amount like 1/4 tsp in a gt, check the amps
if you need more amps, add another 1/4 tsp.
after a few additions, you’ll get the ‘feel’ of how much you’ll need for X number of amps.
if you go to far, either dilute with water, or start over.
i am having problems with catlyst i clean my cell after receiving it the builder recommended lye but im using soda and after 9tsp to a gallon of distilled water i cant get my amps over 5 amps recommended 16 amps for my vehicle i dont no if it makes a diference but my soda is old i assumed the stuff does not go bad please advice
I assume baking soda does go bad – why else would it be thrown out by the wife after the expiration date….
If the builder recommends lye, if possible I’d stay with that, or contact them on concentration of an alternate.
The catalyst needs to be built up to close to the operating level slowly so you dont go over, if its a little low its probably ok since most units heat up and use more amps when warm. Start with the 9 tsp/ gal and add one or two more at a time checking amps, since you will use a new box, you probably want to start lower like4 or 5 tsp/gal. If you go over 16 amps, either start over or add water.
well i have gotten the soda two get too 10 amps so far after 25 tsp to a gallon i finally found some lye from ace hardware im go in too clean out the cell this week and start over with the lye have good expectations i beleive i may 16 mpg with my set up and was only getting 8 to 10 before i dont really no what to clean the cell with so im going to use vinegar thaanks for your help
Craig,
if you dont feel comfortable with the Lye, try using vinegar, cream of tartar, or even lemon or lime juice. These will all act as catalysts, but the concentrations will vary, and like the baking soda, refill water will need to be premixed as its used up as water is used, unlike the Lye which gets stronger as the water is used, and needs to be refilled with plain water to regain the original concentraetion.
Dave,
I’m building a cell (series cell this time) after purchasing an e-bay bath cell and having it be a total nightmare both in function and dealing with the seller. I’m just curious, whan you say lye, can that mean KOH or NAOH? Or are you referring to one specifically? I have heard they can both be called lye… I may have been mislead.
-Wes
please see the glossary for clarification of terms in use, glossary
I was reading this form and some one was questioning hho production without a catalyst. let me just say. YES it is possiable, and with verry little heat. I have done alot of research on it. basicaly you use a signal generator and a pulse width mod to simulate the atomic fequency of a given catalyst. the only draw back is that an signal generator that can hit the high Ghz ranges is … wel lets just say a cheap one is $7000. However it is possiable I am working with a friend that is into electronics that has a acid tank and a few blank boards to try and make a signle signal generator that shouldn’t be that bad sence it will only do 1 fequency.
Basic directions.
Charge water with high voltage 120V. Kinda like a copasator.
Then start the 3 harmonics.
Finaly change over from high voltage to 12V and 1-12 amps.
the orignal creator of this system holds more then a few pattents. He claimed 700% effiency on his pattents. Unfortunatly he died.
sorry for any spelling or gramer mistakes. this is kinda a side note to my research.
Yes I remember reading about the guy with the patent,and not to go conspiricy here but i believe that fella was killed. He said that the secret was a dc high resination. Back to the topic of catylist , i remember hearing that the best suited catylist was ( Galliam) if i spelled it right. Havent tried it yet. I don’t know how hard it is to get. It’s there on the table of elements.Good luck to you all, and thanks for sharing.
I’ve been using baking soda as catalyst for 16 months and found out later that it is not a good one. It produces lots of powder-like substance which hardens in the combustion chamber. My car overheated due to the substance coming out from my HHO gen which also block some air lines of my carburator. Just 3 weeks ago I switched to oxalic acid in the form of powder and it works very fine. It also cleans the lines going in to the intake manifold and my engine runs better now-maybe because it cleans the combustion chamber. But… I have to clean my HHO gen every 5 days since it turns water into brown color.
The kit I found stops the brown and needs only water to top off once in a while. Contact me and I will give you the web site.
pls information the latest of hho like material and catalyst, i just know abaout this and try to make it for my car.thanks
Check out the site safehho.com for latest on generators.
Pls let me know the website for the Kit. Need to stop the Water to get brow. Tired of stripping and cleaning the Generator all the time. petergrote@hotmail.com
can you use lime or lemon juice to create a electrolysis ,I know that if you scowize alime or lemon skin it will give you a big flame holding it up to a match or cigarette lighter
try a small quantity of cobalt phosphate (in addition to NaOH). It is sold as deep cobalt violet pigment. Avoid light cobalt violet which contains arsenic. Cobalt Phosphate forms a temporary plating that enhance the Oxygen side, which indirectly assists the HH side.
Please I want to know the website for the kit. My water is always brown. I doesn´t pass 2 minutes when it turns brown.
Dose anybody know where to get a set of plans to build a complete unit ?
A great site is http://hho4free.com they also yap about catylist,netral plates and generator config.
how are you getting on? i have been building units for a while now in the uk if your interested …
Haven’t had time to work on HOD, because I’m trying to build an airplane. Zenith 750 made in Mexico, Missouri. USA
congratulations, there’s another field of great interest. It will keep you very busy. Phil
________________________________
bob when ya done, just come on through australia if your on ya way down and get me outa here-Boyd
The grass is always greener on the other side. I have always wanted to visit Ausi Land. Maybe i will have the time and doe to do it some day.
I have a 64 plate 20A 110Volt system. It used an inverter and triac dimmer followed by a bridge rectifier. I was getting 28-36mpg out of my 300,000 mile plymouth caravan with HHO @ 1.5lpm. It used to get 20-23mpg. Then a series of unfortunate events, namely, leaks in the system, HHO pump failure, alternator and starter motor failure have left me temporarily chastened, and I have returned my vehicle to stock for a while. I am awaiting the arrival of low-cost well-made leak-proof systems that include breakthru plates and catalysts and better control of the oxygen sensors or perhaps separation of the oxygen component. I may be able to make some of my own components on my new 3D printer. Yours, Phil
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Wow phil Sounds far too technical for me what the hell is a triac dimmer and bridge converter….. my goal is to get this old calor gas van running purely on HHO not just increased mileage … so far managed to get lawn mower engine running in my kitchen with no fumes it was truly a ureka moment…Breakthrough plates? i suppose you mean titanium? and best catalist so far is Caustic soda …
Good luck with Plymouth Tony
You don’t need anything like KOH or NAOH , there is another catalyst that doesn’t create the brown water deposits and is virtually maintenance free . Use it all of the time for years now without any problems.
@Jim
What is that catalyst called?
will it freeze
‘
Are you gonna tell us what it is? If not ; Why did you bring it up?
will it freeze
hey Jim , that sounds good can you let me know what that catalyst is… you say you have been using it for years…. doing what exactly I would love to know….Tony
Boyd has a point, We don’t need a carrot dangled in front of us. Either your a serious ecologist or some corporate lackey yanking our chain. Let us put an end to it . Either you know the catalysis or you don’t. If you know it , please share it ,or get off the site, and quit wasting our time. I need to get back to my HO-JO motor.
Boyd please contact fischandco@yahoo.com
Forget KOH and Baking Soda. Try Soda Ash, used in swimming pools. ( Sodium Carbonate ). Or also Potassium Carbonate works very well.
I think Jim is just yankin our chain, he doesn’t know.
i use koh to 28 percent, also a pump and cooler and a ccpwm dry cell 11 plate from evoultion hho. wont freeze till minus 45 below
one of the first things to think about when making a hho system is how willl it work in freezing temps. and stay clean, and not destroy your alternator.
my system stays clean, stays cool, no steam produced, low curent draw. wont freeze till minus 55
i almost forgot i also use a volo chip with everythig else
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