This is the HFE cell I’ve settled on for my cars, I’m in the process of building it at this time, but thought I’d share the plans.
Its a Dry Cell, meaning its not immersed in the catalyst, has a smaller size, and seems to have eliminated the edge voltage leaking typical with plate cells. It has a refill tank, so it should be easier to maintain and cool.
Dry cells are smaller than normal immersed cells
Click to open the .pdf, right click to save the pic
See these videos about dry cells
Dry Cell Data
Dry Cell Production
Filed under: Cell Type | Tagged: Dry Cell, hfe cell, refill tank, Voltage Leaking
Hi everyone, I’m new to this blog / forum I’m still trying to negociate the pages so any help would be greatly appreciated
Anybody use graphite plates in their cell?
I’m puting together a dry cell like this one using graphite. I’d like to know your output of HHO
Acrobat says your .PDF files are corrupted.
I was able to open the pdf with no problem.
can someone tell me how to post a new thread
if not a member of wordpress, then join
after that subscribe to this blog
then email me, about requesting a contributing user membership, I’ll add you and then you can post new threads
Where can I get one the reservoir posted above
Michael
that is a drawing I made to show how I modified a lawn mower tank to be used as a refill tank.
Hopefully either this Nov I’ll be getting a camera with video capability then I wont have to draw this stuff up like this.
Grab any gas tank from the salvage yards, lawn mowers, snowmobiles, etc that have the plastic tanks, and locate the fittings, try here for instance to see if the parts even exist for what you want to do.
http://fluids.flambeau.com/multipurpose_tanks/1.5_quart.html
My Dry cell is built, and working, the plate spacing is .040 not .050 as some compression was needed to seal leaks.
Some preliminary testing had mixed results, I kept mixing NAOH stronger and stronger, I now have 5tsp/L and the unit now starts with a 6a surge and then drops to 4.5a – at all levels when increasing strength of catalyst it always fell back to about 2/3 of initial surge. The unit is moving 200ml/min of liquid thru the cell just by bubbling, so it should stay relatively cool.
the 4.5a @ 12v produced 300ml/min. more than doubling the rate it did at 2a. So my new estimate is that I can get up to 1L/min if I bump the amps up to 14a-15a range and it should have a start surge at 21-22a.
Assuming the drop in amps is because of the washing the bubbles and there seems to be a space at the top of each cell collecting gas before moving out.
My plan is to approach the spacing and sealing issues separately. For spacing I use little squares of electrical tape (.006) and I’ve been doubling that. I will build the dry cell round (plumbing clean out covers), mount it in my lathe and turn it at low rpm’s (25). I will then “paint” it with epoxy resin. The turning will keep the resin from penetrating between the plates. This should seal it as well as helping to maintain spacing and if several applications are done then it is it’s own housing. What do you think?
electric connections pop to mind first off, not a problem if using N plates. Then filling the unit. The resin sounds good, if the depth into the cell can be controlled, especially when it can be wrapped with glass with more applications.
If its for a pwm controlled system, then the electric connections to each plate could be a problem.
You realize your flirting with a cheap, disposable, cell don’t you?
And who in there right mind would use one? LOL
I even looked at round sealing rings like canning jars have.
I have a dry cell extremely similar to your featured HFE unit that I’ve just this week installed. My plates config is as follows: +N-NN+N-NN+N- I first used baking soda for the electrolyte and it boiled the HHO off like crazy then quit working altogether. I disassembled the unit and cleaned the plates then changed to distilled vinegar and distilled water 1:1 ratio. Not nearly as good of HHO production but worked yesterday. Today checked the unit after a 19 mile drive and no HHO being produced. Any suggestions as to what might be going on???? Please help, I’ve bragged about putting this thing on my ‘03 Tahoe and am afraid I’m simply gonna be stuck with a non working unit and a red face….!!
My first question has to be ‘is the refill tank dry?’
I’ve ran mine for over an hour and had no problems @ 6a and 12a, both with plain water and a pwm, and brute force.
Do your amps spike and then settle down about 2/3-3/4 of the spike?
How many amps?
What did you clean off the plates?
What size plates and how many?
Hate to sound like an investigator, but there are many possibilities, and need to narrow the results.
tncajunnuke,
Bad thought just occurred to me! I hope you aren’t feeding the dry cell with one tube, and feeding the engine with the other, with no way to separate the liquid and return it to the refill tank! Cause if this is the case, your probably ‘pumping the liquid straight into the intake, baking soda and all. My test showed that the liquid movement can be as slow as 100ml/min with a refill tank just slightly higher than the cell, and as high as 700ml/min when 18 inches higher.
Some engines like water injection, but the baking soda cant be good for it!
Dave,
no prob about “investigating.” My refill resevoir is full. I do not presently have an ammeter so I’m not sure how much dc current I’m pulling. I could put a fluke in series to see if you need that info to help. I cleaned plates with baking soda and steel wool and rinsed well with distilled H2O prior to changing to distilled vinegar and H2O. I have 3+ , 6 N, and 3- for a total of 12 plates in the configuration I described above. Bottom of resevoir has 3/8″ ID tygon feeding lower inlet to HFE, upper port of HFE is exiting the HFE and entering the side port of resevoir where the HHO is bubbling through the liquid level and out the top port of resevoir to inlet of Intake manifold. My resevoir is @ 6-8 inches above the HFE cell. Funny thing, after work today, I shook the HFE cell slightly and a couple of bubbles came out the top of the cell, and the thing started producing although not in high volume. I got home and increased the amount of electrolyte concentration and the thing is producing like crazy, but is hot like crazy. If you’d like, email me at my email address and I’ll give you my cell number. I’d really like to talk about this in much more detaile and get advice and discuss designs in greater detail. Have several questions about your opinion of drilled hole configuration for gas movement and possibility of a circular design using large O-Rings for gaskets to better move water/gas without the 90 deg corners of most of the designs I”ve seen which seem to trap gas and restrict liquid movement. THANKS
“cheap, disposable cell”, LOL. I’m pretty sure that cheap is suppose to be the whole point. As far as disposable, if you mean that it can’t be rebuilt then yes. It should be more durable that a bic razor though.
I pulled an all night test last night. (Slept in the shop). I rigged an alarm to wake me if the system quit pulling current. At 3 hours the main power relay burnt up, so I bypassed it. At five hours I blew three 30 amp fuses. When I changed the water that problem went away. It was nasty. And all day I’ve had a terrible headache. Lack of sleep or was I producing toxic gas?
Oh well, I’m not going through the effort of installing this cell on my truck. It can hang on my shop wall with the others. I’m going to start working on my dry cell.
tncajunnuke,
I’m not sure why your combining plates as you are, the +N- uses about 1/2 the amps of a +- config, and +NN- uses about 1/3 of it, so you have 3 cells using more amps than the other 2 cells, and 3 producing more than the other 2.
I have found that the holes at the top need to be larger than the holes at the bottom, so I am using 5/16 and 1/4, guess it acts as a check valve, allowing bubbles out better. I also taper the tops so that holes are at max top, and no plate surface to cover with bubbles, no ‘air lock’ either, that a large bubble can create.
The fitting is also shifted slightly up so that the bottom of the hole is even with the bottom of the ID of the fitting. Again allowing the bubbles to move up.
My next version will have 90 deg fittings, rather than straight to further assist this.
A perforated plate would move air and gas faster/easier but the there are more edges for leakage.
If your gonna play with a dry cel in a circular design, do you have any router or lathe capability? If so try using .030 SS shimstock, comes in 6″ x 50″, use a small flat bottom tip and cut grooves at your required spacing for circles. the outer is solid tube, rest are 1/2 tubes open top and bottom, except center tube which is open to the bottom. Supply water at the center and gas fitting at top, at opposite ends. The center tube is open to bottom and water comes in there, flowing down, then around the circles to the top.
Electric connections could be tabs on ends, pushed thru slots in groove to outside and sealed.
Spacing would only be limited by the end material.
I am in the process of setting up a new site that will be easier to locate topics and comments that are related, I’ll keep everyone posted as I transfer the wealth of material gained here to the new bulletin board site.
clickterry,
Sounds like your catalyst was also producing co2, I hope you were venting the gas to the outside!
Also sounds like after running a while the amps were up over 30.
Don’t use an auto stater solenoid, they aren’t built for continuous use, headlight relays are usually 20 or 30 amp and continuous duty. And Allied electronics has many 30a relays for mounting with built in flanges.
Also there are several styles of auto 20-30a circuit breaker around, usually used on the headlight circuit also, that fit auto breaker sockets.
As far as the dirty water, it was probably the extra catalyst being released that created the high amps. The color and composition should be a good clue as to where it was coming from, like green tint is chlorine, rust or tan color is steel or copper corrosion, sticky sludge generally soap, oil or other contaminant. Smell of the crap sometimes reveals where it from also.
I used some ss scrubbing sponges a while back and in the first 10 min I had the worst sludge I’d seen gumming everything up. then when I emptied it out and began flushing the test container I got this whif of lemon! Asked the wife, and they had soap and scrubbing powder embedded in then for pot scrubbing! As if I read the package for anything other than metal material! The plain unsoaped ones work just fine, as long as the amps don’t melt the thin material.
let me know how the dry cell is coming along.
I’m seriously thinking of offering my dry cell with 25 plates for sale in awhile, the small package cant be beat, and its seems to be durable. Just need to get more real world auto testing done. At 2 L/m out of 4″x4″x3″ package at 24a I think it might be the ticket.
WOW! That’s the kind of production I’m looking for. Is this the same cell that is the pdf file at the top of the page?
I’m starting production on the round dry cell on Monday.
I have a good vehicle for when I get this figured out. It is a 1979 Ford f150 ranger with a 460 cid. It was a camper special so it came with two batteries and a continuous duty solenoid that ties in the second battery when the key is in the on position. It also had ac. The ac is dead so I’ve already modified the bracket for the compressor and installed a second alternator (70a). I swapped out the big battery for a lawn mower type and made a small harness that just goes between the voltage regulator, alternator and second battery. So right now I have a an alternator that is doing nothing but keeping a spare battery charged.
The evaporator is still mounted in front of the radiator and I plan on circulating the water through it via a small rv pump.
I have installed an ammeter and temp gauge in the cab and two switches, for power and water pump. (Even though power will go through the keyed relay I want to be able to shut it down without turning off the truck).
And I installed a fuse block near the solenoid.
So, in summery, I have dedicated power, I have a way of keeping things cool, I have control systems in place, I have an easy place to introduce the HHO, and I have plenty of space under the hood, but, I need a lot of HHO to feed that big 460 (like 2l/m).
As for last nights test. I know everything that went wrong. The list is long, but that is part of learning, by our mistakes. And it was better to have my mistakes on the workbench of the shop than in my truck. It may be old but it has been beautifully restored, it’s paid for and I don’t want to mess it up. I could fix all the problems with this cell but since I’m switching to a dry cell, what’s the point. It is kinda intresting to see them hanging on the wall. I’ll update you on the new cell next week. I’m a little sketchy on hole size and placement so I’ll review the info on this site but I may have questions.
Keep up the good work and thank you Dave.
Sounds like you’ve been preparing the vehicle with a good plan in place.
I wish I could recommend a pump, but the only thing that comes to mind are aquarium pumps, some have 12v dc adapters, so can run in a car.
One thing to keep in mind is the evaporator material, usually aluminum, so you wont be able to use most catalysts, and you might want to check it out for actual water flow and rate, remember it is made to flow freon, a gas. Even sand (silica) can set up a electric caused corrosion with aluminum, ever notice aluminum docks and boat motor plates usually have a lot of pits? electric current between aluminum, water and sand!
All those old cells on the wall, I trying to decide how that would look in my garage, kinda neat idea. But then What would you call it, I don’t like ‘The Wall of Failures’, or the The Wall of I Almost Got It’. My wife suggested ‘ The Wall of Wasted Time’ and The Wall of Lost Money’. And she, for some reason, cant see it as a hobby or Investment! Maybe I should start playing with remote control planes, and see where that gets me!
I’ve already got the pump. It cost forty dollars, made by Atwood, got it at the local RV store. It pulls 2a.
Good tip on the evap. I’ll do a flow test on it right away. It doesn’t have to flow much and because I’m making a close spacing dry cell the cell itself will be pretty restrictive.
As for catalysts, I was hoping to use straight water. The close spacing makes the amps high anyway. It does concern me about the aluminum in general. I feel that the most corrosive thing in the process is the Hydrogen itself. Remember that these are unbalanced atoms just looking for something to get physical with. They were in a relationship that they were happy with but we’ve forced them to be single and now they are in a hurry to shack up with the first thing that will have them. So I’ve got to do a good job of keeping ALL the HH from migrating through the cooling system.
Does your PWM really do anything for you. Besides nine dots I can’t find anybody that will really swear it does anything for them. I was hoping to see an output test using the same cell with and without the PWM.
About my wall. I am retired from the Army (21 yrs) and also retired as a machinist who worked in the R&D dept of a company in the semiconductor business. Now I have a small business making furniture. My shop walls are covered in things I have made and patterns for legs, table aprons and such. Each is a conversation piece for when my clients visit me. I view the cells the same way. Each one has a story and when I build the one I’ll settle on then I can look back and say, “It all started here”.
Terry
Amazingly the pwm does work with plain water and a +- plate config. It doesnt work with water and N plates. The N plates need the catalyst to work with a pwm.
Also noted an effect I hadnt noticed before until using the pwm.
hook up any +- config, connect power, but put a switch in line. flip the switch rapidly on off, see the bubbles form? add catalyst for better production, and rapidly switch again, see the increase in production? Here’s what I see, pwr on, output bubbles on plate, then slowly release, power off, bubbles stop forming, but continue to release, power on, formed bubbles release and new ones formed, repeat cycle.
Simple yes, and I can see where a specific frequency would speed up the process, but I also see where a simple vibrator circuit, mechanical or electronic achieve the same result.
My question is why hasn’t a circuit been devised that auto centers the frequency on the resistance or the capacitance of the water or plates to maximize this effect?
Hi daveand5, I am new to this HHO business but I was very impressed with the photo of your dry cell. Has this unit been successful ? I would like to build one though I do not understand how it all operates. I would like to get hold of a set of plans in full detail if possible. I have built a 9 plate +N-N+N-N+ but I can not control the heat.
Any advice would be appreciated
maxnodiff,
please see this page on the new site,
That is not really my business but would you please describe me something more about this?