I used my condiment cups as plates for this test of neutral plates.
the percent decrease is from the plate setup one line above, i.e. the +NN- is 53% of amps of the +N- plates.
The parallel plates use single cell for comparison, i.e. the +NN-NN+ is compared to +NN- setup amps.
| plates | amps | volts | watts | %decrease |
| +- | 0 | |||
| +N- | 6.4 | 12 | 76.8 | |
| +NN- | 3.4 | 12 | 40.8 | 0.53 |
| +NNN- | 2.4 | 12 | 28.8 | 0.71 |
| +NNNN- | 1.6 | 12 | 19.2 | 0.67 |
| +NNNNN- | 1.3 | 12 | 15.6 | 0.81 |
| +N-N+ | 9.8 | 12 | 117.6 | 1.53 |
| +NN-NN+ | 6 | 12 | 72 | 1.76 |
| +NNN-NNN+ | 4 | 12 | 48 | 1.67 |
The more N plates, the less active the the production, output changed visibly from test to test. Naturally a electrolyte increase would bring the reaction back, but would raise amps.
My data seems to indicate you will need about 1-1.5 Watt per sq inch of area to get close to 100%, then over 1.5 watts/sqin the efficiency drops off.
Unfortunately my +- plate data had coffee spilled on it, and was lost, but I do remember it was in the 12 amp area. The electrolyte/catalyst solution isn’t so important as the approximate amp decrease by adding a neutral plate.
I put together a +NNN-NNN+ cell with the cups, shooting for 8 amps, by doubling the electrolyte, and got 9.5 amps. More than I wanted, but shows how electrolyte changes amps. The output from this cell was 100 secs for 1L, and efficiency of 60%.
My +-+-+-+- cell had 75% efficiency, and 64 sec per L of HHO, at 12 a. SO, maybe +N-N+N-N+ will raise the efficiency closer to 100, while lowering amps to the 9a range.
Filed under: Cell Type, Output testing | Tagged: Cell, efficiency, hho cell, neutral plates
If anyone has done any of these tests and can share the results for comparison, it would be appreciated. The more data available, the better the results.
Hi,
These results are just what I’ve been looking for.
Was wondering if you had any HHO output measurements for these arrangements.
Does +NN-NN+ Produce more than the +N-N+ ?
the +N-N+ produces more (visually, not measured), but the amps per sq in is higher, each of the plates/cones used has 9.75 sq in per side, so the +N-N+ has about 48.75 sq in(.2 a per sq in, 2.4 watts/sq in), while the +NN-NN+ has about 68.25 sq in( .08 a per sq in, .96 watts/sq in). the big difference is in the amount of heat generated, the +NN-NN+ runs much cooler, even if the amps are bumped up.
So would you say the gain of the reduced heat and amps is more beneficial then the loss in production.
And would you say the reduction in production greater then 10% ?
The idea of neutral plates is to reduce heat generated, some plate styles create large amounts of heat when operated at a high amp rate when creating what ‘YOU’ think is enough HHO. By adding Neutral plates, the heat is reduced, as are the amps, and HHO output. Now, you have to increase amps, increasing heat, till you hit ‘ YOUR Required’ rate of production. The heat should be less than without the neutral plates, If not, add more.
Naturally their is a trade off, less heat means less production, there seems to be a optimum temp that the production works best at producing more HHO for each cell. If your container cant handle the temp, change container material. The reaction will stabilize at some temp whether its 120 deg or 180 deg, production will be at max, and so will amps, and I cant stress enough for testing OUTSIDE the vehicle before installation to prevent potential costly mistakes. i.e. if you drive 30 miles to work, and it takes 40 mins average, test the cell for 40-60 mins, is the heat safe, can the alternator handle the extra amps, is the production where “YOU” want it. If anything is wrong, make changes, and try again.
Some HFE cells that are sold, I’m told are deliberately at a lower production and amp rating just to eliminate the possible disasters. Imagine buying a tire that built up too much heat in 10 mins of freeway driving and failed, but was fine in town at 30 mph or less, can you imagine the results?
Great test of plate configuration.
I have one question (well lots but lets just start with this one)..
Since Hydrogen is produced from the negative plates, would it be beneficial if the negative plates were on the outer side. eg -NNNN+NNNN- ?
t.i.e.
A neutral plate is actually a + and – back to back, more plus on one side and more negative on the other.
The -NNNN+ is actually 5 cells i.e. (-N1)(N1N2)(N2N3)(N3N4)(N4+)
N1 has More + charge on left, and more negative charge on right.
if this is confusing, think of a cell thats +-|+-|+-|+- with the | being an insulator/isolator, each side of the insulator is more – and more +, remove the – and + on each side of the insulator, and change the insulator to metal and you have a neutral plate.
Then you have equal number of +- plates that create H and oxygen, h is released 2 at a time with 1 oxygen, hence HHO.
Hope this isnt too confusing.
Just want to know if I don’t use neutral plates but separate the positive and the negative a litle more would it work better? what would possibly be the best separation if so?
Carlos,
My experience shows you need more amps, and more catalyst the farther the plates are separated, and creates more heat.
The closer the better, except to a point, in my tests the thickness of a wire tie (.050″) was optimum, any closer and steam was created and heat build up was very rapid.
I assume that the size of the plates also have an effect on the amount of amps that are required. I have been experimenting with 16ga plates roughly 1 1/2 x 3. I have arranged the plates with a nine plate configuration (+N-N+N-N+). I have reversed the polarity and seemed to not notice any change in HHO production. I have since changed the plate arrangement to (+-N+-N+-N+-) and noticed quite a bit of increase in HHO production along with more than double the amperage. However I was still only at around 15 amps max. I have noticed this configuration on the internet but with 4 to 5 nuetral plates between the +- plates. Electricity in not more forte and succeed in passing an electronics class in college but thats about the extent of it. Oh forgot to mention I was using .06 spacing between plates. Any one have any thoughts or suggestions. I’m new to this and just in the experimental stages but eagerly wanting to install one of these things on my car. I have a 130 mile round trip commute daily and am looking for anything that will help my gas mileage.
Bruce,
the increase is probably from +- portion of the cells, try a +NN-NN+NN- configuration compared to the +N-N+N-N+ configuration, should run cooler, and use less amps with the same catalyst, output will increase as you increase catalyst to get back to 15a.
.06 is probably optimum spacing, try for at least 1lpm, it seems to be a magic number for most engines to get an increase, but of coarse it depends on engine size.
The simplest way to bring in HHO is after the MAF, in the intake, after the filter, probably after the MAP too, but before the throttle body.
I read all I can for several hours every night about the HFE Cells (missing my favorite Scifi shows, thanks Dish for the DVR), No one really states where they bring in the HHO, except for the intake, and no one recommends the vacuum lines or throttle body, except one setup I read about that t’d the intake to a vacuum line and the intake after the filter, both lines had check valves to prevent reverse flow. The idea being that at normal cruise the HHO was brought in by the vacuum, and kept a vacuum on the bubbler (this would I believe add water vapor too), and during acceleration when the vacuum drops, the intake takes over the supply duty.
can sombody try to build a radiator type hho cell
you would have no heating problem
You mean like a row of of cells consisting of say two tubes and a bolt, with a configuration of +N-, the bolt being -, and a top and bottom tank of plastic, mounted in front of the radiator, with a refill tank mounted else where?
Sounds good to me, how soon can you build one?
Checkout FIREINTHEWATER.COM this cell design uses plates and gaskets with a tank and circulating pump to create something very similar.
Check it out and let us know if it spawns any new ideas.
does the plate thickness have any effect on anything ? sorry for such a basic question , just getting started and having some laser cut plates made to start testing
Thank you
As far as I can tell the thickness doesn’t affect anything other than the size of the cell and cost of the material.
SS isnt the best conductor to start with, and has a some resistance, but if the plates aren’t in series, that shouldn’t show up as a problem.
Another note of interest is that SS isn’t the best conductor of heat either….
Makes me wonder if anyone knows of a spray or paint coating that conducts electricity, but inhibits corrosion??
firstly if you wash your ss in white vinigar it is one step closer to even smaller resistence and cleaner electrolite, no brown froffy crap secondly there is a solultion that will protect but still offer conductivity BUT ive only seen it used in the military so i need to do some asking what it is and if i can release the info.
Hi
I have been working with this HHO generaton for very little time. I saw this new idea of the neutral plates and tried it this weekend but i noticed that there was no production in the neutral plates. Is there any conection i need to do to get some generation.
Also i read that the best voltage for the electrolysis is about 1.24V and that neutral plates reduce the voltage to almost that amount. Is that te reason?? If it is why dont we just decrease the voltage from 12v to 1.3V before going to the plates andf ocus on the plates area using +-+-+- configuration?
Also you think graohite could be a good choice instead of sst
You can reduce the voltage to the plates in a +-+- type configuration, but it seems to me to be a waste of electronics and energy thats lost in the conversion, but if you try it let us know the result, I’m always open to new methods.
The reason for the N plate is to reduce amps and prevent overheating, which can also be done by lowering the catalyst rate, but as always the but, measurements of catalysts mix can be a hit or miss, and accidents happen. Imagine normally using a mix of say 1 tsp KOH to 1 gal water, giving you 12 amps. You need to refill and your in a hurry and grab a tablespoon by accident, your amps jump to 20+, and melt the wires, the case, or worse start a wiring fire under the hood.
I’m not saying that with N plates that cant happen, but it decreases output, controling heat.
As a precaution, use 1 container, properly marked with the mix and caution sign, ready to add, so you can remix later when not rushed.
Back to the N plates, 1 N plate reduces plate voltage to about 1/2 of the total (12v) and 2 N plates reduce the voltage to about 1/2, 3 N reduce by about 1/4, etc,etc,
with 1.25 being the lowest that electrolysis happens with.
There should be production on the N plates, remember they are Neutral with no + or – connection, totally isolated.
Each side of the plate will be either MORE -, or MORE +, than the plate opposite of that side. So one N plate is both + and -.
I’ve heard Platinum and Nickle are better, haven’t heard about graphite, I’d check on the reactivity of graphite to your catalyst first, unless your working on a disposable unit, or dont care about unsafe gasses like CO. MSD’s are easy to locate for almost any chemical or chemical mix.
Dave, This is a great site. I am just learning about this this week. But Why not try the battery method. Use lead plates. Non corrosive, conductive. Take it a step farther . Take a spent car battery empty it out and clean it really well. (use baking soda!!!) then use it a the h2o generator. The plates are alreay in it and ready to go. they have lots of surface area already built in for supurbe HHO production. It seems that is more or less what we are trying to create any way. Don’t batteries give off hydrogen? What do you think?
James,
uh, let me see, a spent battery usually has plate damage, I’d check out the chemistry of the ‘lead compounds’ and what they’d produce with different catalysts, Playing with lead mixtures isn’t healthy use of time, the plates are different compounds designed to hold or absorb a charge, not pass it thru to the catalyst, lack of room under the hood for packages that large on most cars,……
Otherwise it might work…..
dave this is a very interesting site you have put alot of time and effert in keep up the good work , am having a go myself , struggling with high amps at present , will try neutral plates over weekend
gave the neutral plates ago over the weekend made alot of differance to my amps ,olso reduced the concentration of the electrolyte ,have gone from blowing 30amp fuses to runing at around 15amp plates are +n-n+n-n+n- gust got to sort out the sensors now not shaw which way to go map/maf or o2
I have been experimenting with the ss tube cell design for the last several months. I started with a 2 electrode basic cell using a 3 in ss tube and 2.75 ss tube encased in pvc container.
I’ve tested the device on a my car by simply dumping the HHO into my intake at the filter. The engine went from idle and jumped in rpm until the computer leaned the fuel mixture. I tested several times while idling for 15 min with no major issues and amps between 6-9, and decided to do a driving test. After 20 min the amps went from 9.88 with no catalyst to 0.
Im assuming the failure was due to a catalyst or heat issue, but am questioning other possible design flaws. My initial results are encouragement for a better design, and have several ideas for improvements. fireinthewater.com is very interesting sight it and helps with ideas for future flaws.
The dry cell works if you have the space but I think a wet/dry cell is possible using ss tubing, a few gaskets and some pvc fittings. With this design you should be able to incorporate the wet cell between actively charged tubes and use the inner and outer extra space to “bubble” the electrolyte and separate HHO gas for use.
Ideas / Criticizm? I’m Just brainstorming and could use some input.
Does anyone know how aluminum reacts with HHO production Im considering a finned aluminum tube for the outer shell to assist in cooling.
as you state you had no catalyst I’m assuming you were using tap water, if so the chlorine was used up and no further catalyst action.
Try very light catalyst solutions first like vinegar or tartric acid first, there are no harmful components that can be be vaporized into the intake.
Any cell that works is great, all ideas should be tried at least once.
hi i just wanna say i like your thinking daveand5
Ok, so far I have been taking in all this info from numerous sources and drawing up design concepts. I am preparing to make my first prototype.
My design idea basically incorporates the same principle as the fluid dynamics of an under-gravel fish tank filter system in order to cool off the electrolyte and thus cooling the entire unit.
Using stainless steel cups with the majority of the bottoms machined out except for some mounting tabs, stack them spaced appropriately narrow tapered side up creating a sort of venturi effect. As the gas is produced and rises the electrolyte naturally begins to flow with it, using this to our advantage we route this up out the top of our housing to a larger sealed system reservoir. The reservoir has a return pipe/hose that exits the reservoir’s bottom and leads to the bottom of our housing allowing the cooler fluid to enter the housing. The HHO is harvested from the top of the reservoir. This obviously won’t create massive flow, but I don’t think we need tons of flow to accomplish the cooling. If it gets hot enough we could possibly route it through a little aux transmission cooler but I doubt that will be neccessary.
But I am trying to plan out the arrangement of the cups/plates. I have 12 condiment cup atm and was hoping to gain some insight on the matter.
I was thinking of from top to bottom doing (-nn+nn-nn+n-)
Since the feedback so far on +n- seems to indicate higher output by comparison having that at the base of my element with 2 nuetral plates in the sequence after (-nn+) the extra little production there would promote flow (give it a little kick start if you will). But I am unsure if this idea will effect the rest of the element in a negative way since it would be setup differently? Does that make sense?